Auto Bailout: Both Sides of the Aisle

Who Killed Detroit? by Patrick J. Buchanan (more by this author) Posted 11/21/2008 ET Who killed the U.S. auto industry? To hear the media tell it, arrogant corporate chiefs failed to foresee the demand for small, fuel-efficient cars and made gas-guzzling road-hog SUVs no one wanted, while the clever, far-sighted Japanese, Germans and Koreans prepared and built for the future. I dissent. What killed Detroit was Washington, the government of the United States, politicians, journalists and muckrakers who have long harbored a deep animus against the manufacturing class that ran the smokestack industries that won World War II. As far back as the 1950s, an intellectual elite that produces mostly methane had its knives out for the auto industry of which Ike's treasury secretary, ex-GM chief Charles Wilson, had boasted, "What's good for America is good for General Motors, and vice versa." "Engine Charlie" was relentlessly mocked, even in Al Capp's L'il Abner cartoon strip, where a bloviating "General Bullmoose" had as his motto, "What's good for Bullmoose is good for America!" How did Big Government do in the U.S. auto industry? Washington imposed a minimum wage higher than the average wage in war-devastated Germany and Japan. The Feds ordered that U.S. plants be made the healthiest and safest worksites in the world, creating OSHA to see to it. It enacted civil rights laws to ensure the labor force reflected our diversity. Environmental laws came next, to ensure U.S. factories became the most pollution-free on earth. It then clamped fuel efficiency standards on the entire U.S. car fleet. Next, Washington imposed a corporate tax rate of 35 percent, raking off another 15 percent of autoworkers' wages in Social Security payroll taxes State governments imposed income and sales taxes, and local governments property taxes to subsidize services and schools. The United Auto Workers struck repeatedly to win the highest wages and most generous benefits on earth -- vacations, holidays, work breaks, health care, pensions -- for workers and their families, and retirees. Now there is nothing wrong with making U.S. plants the cleanest and safest on earth or having U.S. autoworkers the highest-paid wage earners. That is the dream, what we all wanted for America. And under the 14th Amendment, GM, Ford and Chrysler had to obey the same U.S. laws and pay at the same tax rates. Outside the United States, however, there was and is no equality of standards or taxes. Thus when America was thrust into the Global Economy, GM and Ford had to compete with cars made overseas in factories in postwar Japan and Germany, then Korea, where health and safety standards were much lower, wages were a fraction of those paid U.S. workers, and taxes were and are often forgiven on exports to the United States. All three nations built "export-driven" economies. The Beetle and early Japanese imports were made in factories where wages were far beneath U.S. wages and working conditions would have gotten U.S. auto executives sent to prison. The competition was manifestly unfair, like forcing Secretariat to carry 100 pounds in his saddlebags in the Derby. Japan, China and South Korea do not believe in free trade as we understand it. To us, they are our "trading partners." To them, the relationship is not like that of Evans & Novak or Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers. It is not even like the Redskins and Cowboys. For the Cowboys only want to defeat the Redskins. They do not want to put their franchise out of business and end the competition -- as the Japanese did to our TV industry by dumping Sonys here until they killed it. While we think the Global Economy is about what is best for the consumer, they think about what is best for the nation. Like Alexander Hamilton, they understand that manufacturing is the key to national power. And they manipulate currencies, grant tax rebates to their exporters and thieve our technology to win. Last year, as trade expert Bill Hawkins writes, South Korea exported 700,000 cars to us, while importing 5,000 cars from us. That's Asia's idea of free trade. How has this Global Economy profited or prospered America? In the 1950s, we made all our own toys, clothes, shoes, bikes, furniture, motorcycles, cars, cameras, telephones, TVs, etc. You name it. We made it. Are we better off now that these things are made by foreigners? Are we better off now that we have ceased to be self-sufficient? Are we better off now that the real wages of our workers and median income of our families no longer grow as they once did? Are we better off now that manufacturing, for the first time in U.S. history, employs fewer workers than government? We no longer build commercial ships. We have but one airplane company, and it outsources. China produces our computers. And if GM goes Chapter 11, America will soon be out of the auto business. Our politicians and pundits may not understand what is going on. Historians will have no problem explaining the decline and fall of the Americans.

Cheryl-I continue to be amazed that the media injects their bias into the variuos subjects that are presented. There is so much mis-conception about the Domestic Auto Industry and rather than bring people on your program who can "clear up the myths" there seems to be a concerted effort to keep the correct data hidden. If a person who is an expert is making a point, why would you interupt them and inject your own personal bias. And you are not alone in this practice. Could this be why we as consumers have not confidence in the media? This Domestic Auto LOAN has nothing to do with corporate jets. (Companies have to file with the SEC how their Senior Officers will be kept safe and secure for sake of the company -look at the SEC filings of many large companies and you will be enlightened) It has everything to do with not having a 21st Century USA Manufacturing Strategy. None of the news reports provides information about the fact that USA STATE Governments have $$$ incentivised foreign manufacturers to come to their state. None of you ever share that Foreign Auto makers are subsidized by their government in the form of protectionism, they pay for the employe health care, employe pensions, have lower corporate taxes, pay for R & D, and are partly owned by the home Country. How do the Big 3 compete when there is not a level playing field? What is wrong here? It seems like the media is helping our Government drive the middle class out of this country. I am so fed up with the negative information about the auto industry. How do you all sleep at night?

As a fellow NAU grad and old friend, its great to see Cheryl making huge strides in bringing the full economic story to life. My personal feeling are that the auto industry needs what the airlines needed a few years back, a few hard bankruptcies. Unions have strong armed too many big businesses into worthless bureaucracies. The lean, mean and sometime heartless prevail in the US economy. Natures law plays out in business as well as on the Serangetti, the weak and old have to fail off in order for the herd to flourish and survive.

Was the professor who profiled the Cost Comparison [Hourly Wages Big 3 vs. Japanese Transplants] from Kettering University (Flint, MI)? If so,you might want to contact him as he will have some VITAL information for you that you can NOT obtain elsewhere. However, some items may be "Confidential" and considered by him (because of position) to be uncharted waters. Prince Handley

Clearly the business model has been broken for some time and current circumstances have brought that fact to the fore front. Just as the other broken business models were expended from the marketplace, as in the case of 40+ steel companies going chapter 11, so too should this one. Only then can some entity stronger arise from the ashes just as was the case in the steel industy.

This is crazy banks keep getting and getting without giving anything in return. WHY can Buffet get a 10% return on his 5 bil to Goldman and we taxpayers are getting NOTHING for our 10 bil in GS???????? or 150 bil in AIG etc etc etc????? Like there's bonuses for all these executives, there should also be penalties. A CEO of a failed company isn't worth millions of dollars a year PERIOD. The problem is all the guys sitting on the board hope that they'll be the next CEO COO or whatever C so they approve millions without blinking their eye.

"Toyota has a reputation of building quality and reliable products. Talk to any mechanic, talk to anyone who has owned them. Toyota built that reputation over building reliable vehicles over years, and they have become the world’s largest automaker." They are not the biggest automaker; General Motors retains that title. The press is doing a poor job reporting too. The ethics at Toyota isn't what you might expect. Last year Toyota recalled more vehicles than they built; and they lost a class action suit regarding 8.6 million engines that had *failed* while the vehicles were under warranty in most cases. Right now Toyota is in the middle of buying back 2001 Tundra's due to the severe rust problem which renders the unit unfit for the road. They've done a masterful job keeping all of the above quiet haven't they?

The Other Plan to Save Detroit It looks like the folks in DC are inclined to give the stimulus package another try. Meanwhile, the Democrats owe too much to the unions not to save the auto industry. Let's combine the two give the economy a boost and save a few million jobs all at once! Instead of shipping cases of cash off to car makers or sending us all another check; Send out a voucher (for say $1,000) good for the purchase of a motor vehicle, according to the percentage of the vehicle that's produced domestically. (Civic = 70%, Ford Explorer=80%, etc.) Those not interested in a new car could sell (or give away) their vouchers (EBay would be loaded with them in no time flat); those who wish to buy a car could use as many as they obtain, up to the full MSRP of the vehicle. This would bail out the car industry without giving them a dime directly. Furthermore, it would reduce the overall age of the nation’s cars, increasing overall fuel economy & decreasing pollution! Strengthen the dollar Since vehicles with a higher domestic content would be moving better, this would reduce our imports, strengthening our dollar which would in turn further reduce what we pay for anything imported ...like gas. Jobs Instead of simply saving relatively few jobs, this would cause such a run that it would create some; and instead of merely propping up the big 3, it would put 1000's of suppliers back to scheduling overtime. Pays for itself! Since money turns over 5 times, and the vouchers are only good for the domestic content of the vehicle, every dime would be spent in the United States creating taxable income. What is the income tax on 65,000 anyway? (20K manufacturing cost = $13,500 W-2 income x 5 = $65,000) I'm sure you'll agree that this makes more sense than simply sending out checks; many of which will be used to buy new flat screen TV's usually made in Malaysia or some such place. -Doug Hageman Marion, CT

Living in the Detroit area and recently laid off I don't agree with the bailout. I am in the Logistics side of the auto industry and at one point there were 100 trucking companys closing their door weekly. I didn't see anyone come to their rescue. I feel if a Business can't not make ends meet they need to close the doors. I also feel the union contracts they have are to much. When the Big 3 CEOs where in Washington what was the union President there for. I know to make sure they still get their money. NO BAIL OUT let them file Chapter 11 and reorginize without all the added union cost.

Members of Congress and the media worry about trivialities, such as corp jets and corp exec salaries, and they seem incapable of seeing the big picture. The Big Three don't want to reveal their secret future plans to their competitors, but silly members of congress don't understand that. We re-elected the wrong people. Future hearings should be behind closed doors--individually by company. Limiting corp jet use and salaries, again, is unimportant; we must determine the long-range capabilities of each company's plans. Congress should also tell the TRUTH; closing the big three will not destroy 3 million jobs, because other auto companies will survive, and will buy goods from suppliers. So congress should use actual estimates, not lie! Remember, if some companies disappear, the U.S. will survive, though some unions will not.

It would be silly to assume that the car companiess are not at fault for putting themselves into the circumstances that they currently face. The American people demand cars that have greater gas mileage and are more efficient. This has been the growing trend. For the car makers to sit back and reject the development of these types of vehicles...I can only say one thing, we must reject giving them anything in return. If we want to make our economy stronger, we must let those companies that cannot afford to operate file bankruptcy. By allowing these companies to effectively restructure under bankruptcy, it will allow them the new opportunity that they are looking for. I can only imagine that this will not be good for those individuals that hold coporate bonds. We cannot continually pump our money into the system when we all know for a fact that it is delaying the inevitable, failure. Toyota is a great example of molding to the trends of the consumer. They have a strong history of fuel efficient cars. Even when gas goes down, we know this is not going to last, therefore the lack of vision that these domestic automakers have, ought to be given what they deserve, and that is clearly nothing. I will never, ever, ever, by any domestic car again. These companies do not deserve the business and I think unions are destroying the manufacturing industries of this country (they are the ones that are forcing companies to ship jobs overseas). I have worked in many unions and they are a buearacratic joke. Many times I have seen the unions fail to assist individuals within the union structure that truly needed their help whether it was in regards to discrimination, sexual harrasment, etc. Unions are truly the most powerful and useless thing outside of the overly compensated executives that have made this industry corrupt.

700B bailout did two things: restores confidence and gave the executive branch twice the monetary power. It wasn't intended to be used, it was intended to prevent a run on banks. What it also did is pay people for gambling with our livelihood. This bailout is much more complicated. First off, the automarket is far from a free market. Let me name some things that are happening: currency manipulation, over regulation, price fixing (Toyota owns 1000 of its suppliers, China owns almost all theirs and requires partners), import taxes at their facility not our shores (opposite for exports), double standards, government subsidized programs, etc. Who is to blame? This is economic warfare (I guess it beats killing each other), what does it take to win this new age of warfare?

We don't need to bailout any companies, banks, savings, loans, mortgages or any other companies. If my business had their problems, there is no one there but me. It is not our governments responsibility nor right to bail out anyone or any company. If these companies can't make it, then file bankruptcy! I'm in the auto industry and this could effect my career. I still don't want government to be involved at all. The government needs to worry about our defense here at home, control our borders and protect it's citizens.

Hi Cheryl, How come not one senator or congressman is talking about cutting corp taxes, 35% federal is absurd. Canada is 19.5% and going down to 15% in 2011. Canada is our largest trading partner. How do we compete with that. You want jobs in US, Impose Importation taxes of 20% on all goods from China. That will bring the jobs home. I own two golf companies and make all my product in the USA. When shipping my goods to China and Korea. We are paying about 55% and 25% repsectively which includes shipping, duty etc... So how fair is that!

Here's a thought about the idea of bailouts. My partner and I started a small biotech company, and a decade later took a bridge loan to do an IPO with UBS. That was in May 2001, and 9/11 ended that flat. Since we couldn't make the loan good, our company was taken. It still goes on, but without us. No job, no pension, little assets remaining. That's capitalism. You take your risk; you win or lose. My only bailout is social security and medicare, and I knew that going in. The idea of bailing out obscenely overpaid executives who took no personal risks and ran their companies into the ground is deeply immoral and will do this country no good.

Lets stop for a moment and consider the problem. The auto makers have been in trouble for quite sometime. Compare Toyota to GM. General Motors has continued building what I would call inferior products to continue keeping their bottom line inflated. Whereas Toyota has continued to build dependable quality products. I own three Toyotas with over 200k miles that are reliable daily drivers. Anything out of Detroit would have had to have been rebuilt one or two times (that has been my experience). The problem with Detroit, as I see it, is a management problem, we have as good of engineers as the Japanese, but unfortunately it is more important for the big wigs to make their millions, instead of building a quality product. Why couldn't Detroit engineer better cars? I believe they are more interested in profits than building the world's best cars. For Toyota their focus is building the world's best vehicles. Once upon a time we did build the best cars and trucks in America, why can't we again? It comes down to mindset. To earn the publics trust Detroit needs to demonstrate they care about us the public. I am tired of buying Detroit crap that is nearly worn out by 100k. America was once known for the quality of the product that they produced. I believe that if Detroit wants a bailout that the upper management needs to take a cut in salaries or step down. I believe that the unions need to take a paycut or disband. I think they need to focus on what is really important, regaining the trust of the American public by building quality vehicles again. People need to set asside their "greed" and think about the future. A bailout without guidelines is simply a give away and the automakers will have to face the music at some point in a few months or years anyway. Ultimately, America possesses the know-how if they are willing to pay the price to accomplish the goal. Why couldn't Detroit do like Volkswagon did years ago, and build the same basic vehicle in each category. Each year they would perfect the vehicle's engineering. This would cut down on the continual retooling for each year model change. It would allow them to start perfecting their product, so that once again Detroit might have a reputation of building quality and reliable vehicles. Continual change at the sacrifice of building reliable vehicles is in my veiw a waste of money and engineering. Toyota has a reputation of building quality and reliable products. Talk to any mechanic, talk to anyone who has owned them. Toyota built that reputation over building reliable vehicles over years, and they have become the world's largest automaker.

I appreciate your efforts for fair and balanced Cheryl. But both pundints represent two different views, both advocates of their respective views. Better said, you gave two views of the Auto Industry. I do have a question: The heads of the big three did not come to the hearings with plans nor facts. I assume they want an infusion of money vis-a-vis to continue the way they are going. Are we to subsidise their employees with this bail out money? After all, this is their big expense.

there are pirates in the waters near somalia. There are pirates in the usa that live in michigan and fly jets to washington to hold up the american people. I will take the pirates in the waters near somalia.

Where is my bailout??? When will this crybaby stuff end on the part of supposed executives??? When will the demos in congress grow some balls for a change!!!

no, no, a thousand times no. NO bailout. Let them fail and go to chapter 11. Then the uaw can file chapter 11 also. Good riddance.

On one hand, I agree that our capitalist system should be allowed to work. If a company cannot handle the competition, then let the natural course of action take place. If the Big Three cannot cope with market conditions, they should inherently reap what they have sown. But ... this very unique situation that is being experienced by all automakers is NOT necessarily of their own making. The credit crunch is truly stiffling for many potential buyers. If the Big Three can successfully re-negotiate their existing UAW contracts (as a pre-requisite to any loan package) to mitigate the consequences of the unrealistic healthcare and retirement plans, then the automakers actually have a good chance for survival ... and repaying any loans with interest. If you follow contemporary automobile products, you must admit that US auto companies make quality vehicles. They are much improved over vehicles made just a few years ago. The technology is equal to or better than the rest of the competition. Based on all the viable options for the auto companies, it seems a loan with strict contingencies might (just maybe) be a win-win situation in the long term. It worked with Chrysler in 1980, perhaps again? John P.

As a supplier to the OEM's I would like nothing better to see then them go under due to their greed. When I say them, I mean the small percentage of Union workers that expect the world for nothing and the top executives who's only goal is to make a fortune in a small amount of time regardless of the consequences to the company, community and people around them. That being said, I have met many good people at the domestics and suppliers to them stuck in the middle of this mess (white collar and blue) who are hard working and they themselves being very grateful for what they have. Because of them (as well as the people in the communities that rely on them for jobs) do I not want to see the domestics fail. If helped, I would love to see stipulations on stopping the outsourcing of the higher skilled white collar jobs such as engineering, lab techs, etc. It was always preached to better myself, continuously learn, get an education, move to a skilled blue or white collar job; these are the jobs that would stay, WRONG! We are only here now to educate and teach our replacements overseas, then they discard us (I have seen 2/3 of these people now loose their jobs to foreign countries. Maybe we should do that with the executives! As a side note, The Domestics have no loyalty to the US. They will not think twice about forcing you to give them your innovative ideas then giving them to the lowest cost competitor overseas to stuff their and wall streets pockets. When dealing with a lot of these skilled worker replacements overseas, all I get anymore are stupid questions (yes, from overseas engineers that are now designing these parts) on how does this work? tech me so I can compete against you and take the rest of the jobs (ask the OEMS the question: "How many people have you let go their, and how much do you continue to invest there, as they turn the lights out here". As far as my wages as a supplier, they have continuously gone down; mandatory wage decreases, pay more if not all of my own health care, do the job 3 people where doing a few years ago (which can not be done in completeness), work with people all times of the day, all around the world, no pension, etc. I was better off 6 years ago. But I am, and always will be grateful to have a job, unlike a lot of my colleagues.

Those Who Cannot Learn From History are Doomed to Repeat it.

Don't blame the tax payers for the failures. It's the fault of the unions and management. Let them work it out. File for Chapter 11 bankruptcy!!

I have to agree that the auto companies should file Chapter11 and take their medicine for failing to comply with what they knew should have been done 25 years ago. I have just listened to the press conference by the UAW head and he made me sick. He pointed out that money was given to the foreign companies to locate in Alabama. This is true, but it was by Alabama and not the federal gov't. AND these are not union shops. When the American workers wake up and want to join all of us in cutting back on our standard of living and realize that most people cannot buy cars from those who make $70 an hour because WE do not make those kind of wages I will be glad to listen to their cause. They need to wake up and be a part of trying to correct this situation and not just whine and hold their hands out to the rest of us to save them. I can't think of ANYONE in this world who is worth millions of dollars a year to run a company plus lifetime benefits and stock options. And the shame of it is when they are facing extinction they continue to ride in comfort on the corporate jets. Tells me there won't be any changes if there is a bailout. I for one will not buy American cars again until they GET IT.

Time to really watch out here. GMAC (GM Financial section) is applying to become a bank! Congress has decided to cancel it's vote on the Big 3 bailout; so now GM just like American Express are applying to do an "End around" and bypass the regular system that says "NO" to their bailout! If they are permitted to be come a bank; they will have access to the BILLIONS already approved to help the failing financial institutions. They can't get their $50 BILLION or so.... then they just apply and become a bank and then they get access to 700 BILLION!! WHAT A COUNTRY!! Call whom ever is in charge of this application and inundate them with a very STERN "NO" on the car companies becoming banks to bypass the will of the people... this time seems to be reflected in our representitives in Congress (perhaps for the first time in a LONG time... they MIGHT be listening and by saying "NO" to the Big 3 bailout for poor managment practices and pressures from the UAW. This is ONE of possibly SEVERAL outlets the Big 3 are using to DISGUISE their intent to get a bailout! Any History buffs out there that remember how the English abolished the Slave Trade? It was in the disguise of only allowing the countries own FLAG to be flown on the ships. Meaning that if they were not American ships; they could then be boarded and inspected. Within 2 years of this action; the slave trade was abolished as a result. This is a RUSE to get past people saying "NO" to the bailout. They are just repackaging it to "GET THEIR WAY". DENY THIS APPLICATION!

I say Let Them DIE!! The american auto industry has had over 25 years to get it right!!! Let the market place work. I have no pity for the american auto workers who avg pay incl beneifts are an avg of $72 an hour!!!! they can go work for nissian, toyota, honda or hyundai!!!!

Why doesn't the auto industry borrow money from the oil companies, since they have been going steady for a long time. One can't stay alive without the other.

I've voted Republican for 40 years. I am rethinking that. The ones advocating letting the autos fail and the ones that invented CAFTA, NAFTA are not going to have their standard of living relegated back to the bread lines. The Romneys, and like minded, will still be having someone else do their laundry and cook their meals. Even the former middle class are losing their jobs to China, India, etc. the country that makes nothing will soon be WORTH nothing!!!!

I work for a small manufacturing firm with about 300 employees. Who bails us out if we go under? Who would weep for the 300 unemployed from my firm? Who in Congress would even listen? Who would care? Why are we different than a UAW worker? Our blood is just as red. Our mortgages, our groceries, our children's clothes all paid with the same green money as theirs', and no one on our factory floor makes $30/hr.

If GM is in such dire need of a cash infusion, can anyone explain their planned expansions in Brazil and China? Are we simply enabling GM to send more jobs out of the country. Here are a couple of stories for your perusal and comment: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/20...t_10381498.htm http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601080&sid=aJB4pTi0X5lo&refer=asia

The excess that we are still seeing from these CEO's that are drawing these big saleries and driving these corporate planes is intolerable. Do they love their country or are they trying to bring it down. It is time to fire EXECS, they are not leaders, they are bleeding our systems dry, they do not care about the people and their country, put them out to pasture, I watch this in discust. Look at Microsoft, Bill Gates flies Coach..... Time to suck it up guys and stop sucking offf the system. NO MORE... LET TTHEM GO....

I'd say let failing systems fail. winning systems win.

Do the auto execs serve cheese with that wine? Their claim that no one would buy a car from a BK company is ridiculous! I'd buy a new Corvette for 20 - 50% off if they were being liquidated and just buy a warranty through a private company. It's done all the time, especially when the standard manufacturer's warranty runs out. These men are protecting their own golden eggs taken from the industry's hen house.

Has anyone done the math to figure how many middle class jobs could be funded by the hundreds of millions that the top executives drain from the bottom line in the ailing financial and auto companies? Has anyone figured the funds they would have to plow back into their own loan or re-tooling programs from the same source: executive excesses? How much could the price of a Corvette be lowered if there was a cap of $300,000 on the top executive salaries? I can't imagine them working any harder or having any greater 24/7 responsibility than the President.

The only problem with being "fair and balanced" is that it elevates what is wrong to the same level as what is right! So its something to do when you haven't a glue or are just morally corrupt!

I cast a write in vote for Ron Paul. All but a few of my friends considered me a "kook" for voting for a "kook". But someday after we have all suffered tremendously, history will prove Ron Paul and his understanding of real economics was the only hope this country had of preventing a second depression.

both sides perhaps don't forget the people in the balcony throwing things down.

I bet a ZZ top cover band would go over well in Abu Dhabi. Don't get me wrong, I'm no big fan, the idea just popped into my head. I'd say the war wasn't necessary. Cultural influences of the west - if they really are successful models would have been planted and bloomed in time in the middle east.

Cheryl, We do appreciate your efforts to remain neutral by using opposing views on your program. However, it does not seem that it mnade much sense to pair Rep Sherman, who had very good points supporting giving some help to the auto companies with Ron Paul, who got completely off the track. Sherman realizes that we may not have much time to avoid a complete crash in this country and should err on the side of keeping things operating rather than risking disaster for millions of citizens. Paul came up with a ridiculous scheme to tie the worlds commerce to a few piles of gold in some vault somewhere. We have to keep our country solvent and productive, so others put trust in our currency, instead of some inanimate object with no real productive use. That idea was tried years ago and discredited. Also, Ron Paul suggested we may be heading for socialism, that horrible scenario. Does he think the last eight years of uncontrolled and greedy capitalism has been a wonderful success, when it has put us on the brink of a depression? It is usually no great problem to tear things up but fixing them is a nuch more difficult job, requiring great effort and ability, and time is growing short while games are played in Washington. Surely, if we can justify helping AIG with 150 billion we could find 25 billion for help to three auto companies.